| Composer to Composer > Public Forums > General Chat > IRONY (adj.) - The taste of iron. | Forum Quick Jump
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Cattie
Temple University
      
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/24/2009 10:32 PM (GMT -5) |   | The title speaks for itself, really... I find it horribly funny that because I TAKE THE INITIATIVE to mostly teach myself and that I did things the opposite way that most of my professors wanted me to do, and that simply because I went to COLLEGE for MUSIC EDUCATION (I took two composition classes, count em), that suddenly now I represent everything YOU THINK is wrong with academia.
You know what the greater irony is? lol They're trying to teach students the things you're talking about - individualism, writing whatever you want as long as it sounds sufficiently bad, and frowning on anybody that wants to try and write what's popular. Joke's on you! Maybe you should go to school and find out what they're teaching before you criticize it - and if you have, well then you're a product of it too and there's very little you can do after the fact to change that.
Let me be perfectly clear - I DO do things for myself, and I never put in a chord or make an edit just because a forum member or even a professor tells me to. I think I've done that a grand total of 1 time(s). And I knew it had to be done before it was suggested.
I think you're telling me I'm wrong because you just want to be unique in your special little way and disagree with whatever I have to say. I could say 'we should all work together instead of going to war' and you'd find SOMETHING wrong with that. What a bunch of idiots, who concern themselves with nothing but themselves, and have the nerve to call that ART. You are the antithesis of ART... because art is the achievement of mankind, the thing that we're ALL capable of, and the beauty in it is O N L Y present because of how it is appreciated by others.
You are SO WRONG, you need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat for you to realize it. You may coincidentally make good music every now and again, perhaps because you listen to good music and because we're all programmed to spit out what we hear... but you certainly don't get it. Maybe you don't need to get it, but it's just frustrating to hear a good musician speaking like a product of the ironic Individualism that has swept almost the entire world.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
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 Post Edited (Cattie) : 11/1/2009 12:28:43 PM (GMT-6) | | Back to Top | | 
TwelveTone
Registered Member
 
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 2:32 AM (GMT -5) | | Cattie said...
You know what the greater irony is? lol They're trying to teach students the things you're talking about - individualism, writing whatever you want as long as it sounds sufficiently bad, and frowning on anybody that wants to try and write what's popular. Joke's on you!
The joke's on whomever's side is looking at the situation from a perceived advantage. You think academia is missing out. However, you likely wouldn't have as much success in that realm, despite what you think about what success even is in that area. But that doesn't change how other people see things.
What if those people are doing what they want? What if they really DO enjoy individualism, music with just the right balance of 'badness', unpopular music. THEY, what if they really do enjoy these things? Who is the joke on?
Is there even a joke to be had? I think that's really where Mike comes from. And really, I just ask, why does there have to be a joke? I think you're frustrated because you have a hard time letting people be who they are. You can't possibly be happier by criticizing new music rather than just letting people try to change and accepting it.
And another thing, while we're on irony, and while you have a Beethoven banner in every post... Do you really even know who he was? Think about the musical period he is associated with, and compare his behavior to the philosophy of that time's common practices and ideologies.
Beethoven wrote music with just the right amount of badness in his day, just the right amount of wrong notes, just the right amount of screw you attitude, and he is remembered because he was different, not because he tried to be popular. Talented as he was, his genius was in taking things that were not common practice, things that would be out of place (i.e. against the communication flow), and making them work in his OWN language.
If he were alive today, I have no doubt that he would be on the cutting edge of electronic music, polytonality, atonality, sounds and noises, visual arts, video, etc.
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TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 6:04 AM (GMT -5) | | I'm confused. I thought you were arguing with TIE. You keep saying 'you'. Are you directing this at me?
Somebody said...
You are SO WRONG, you need to be hit over the head with a baseball bat for you to realize it. You may coincidentally make good music every now and again, perhaps because you listen to good music and because we're all programmed to spit out what we hear... but you certainly don't get it. Maybe you don't need to get it, but it's just frustrating to hear a good musician speaking like a product of the ironic Individualism that has swept almost the entire world.
How does one listen to good music, make good music, but still not 'get' it? Wouldn't NOT getting it be listening to good music, and going off and writing bad music? And don't you realize that you constantly look down on people? "You might happen to make good music every once in a while..." seriously, take some time to think about your outlook and where it's getting you. I don't get it? Says you, yeah, so what. I don't care about proving my opinions to the world like you do. The stuff you're talking about isn't worth getting mad over when you could focus all that time and negative energy towards something positive, constructive, or creative. And I can promise you that if you want to change things, you fail already if on the inside you have nothing but contempt for the real world. Not to mention you'll have a hard time getting any happiness or satisfaction out of life looking at the world from those eyes. I used to walk around thinking the world was all wrong, it didn't get me anywhere, but the world IS wrong. You should make an effort to try loving and enjoying different people, and you might consider reading or rereading the book of Ecclesiastes. I'm not trying to be a smartass when I say that either.
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TwelveTone
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Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 6:24 AM (GMT -5) | | Okay, and I have to ask, what is the point of what you're doing? Because basically you're just running around saying, "You're all doing it the wrong way!!" Okay, what do you want to accomplish by saying this? It's like you really are just waiting for your chance to tell everyone they're stupid and wrong. Well, why wait, just go ahead and do it, make the world a beautiful place by strangling the majority of the population that 'does it wrong', different than what you'd like to see. And do you think that saying this is going to have any sort of positive outcome? Most importantly do you not realize that there is free will? Free will was intended, it IS the right way. It IS the way it things are, the way things always have been, and the way they always WILL be. You are fighting the manner in which life has been intended, constructed, and carried out. That's why you are frustrated.
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TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 5:04 PM (GMT -5) | | This is simple, really. Jeff thinks he has the inside definitive scoop on the authenticity of psychology and how music works as a language in that realm. He refuses to change his position on the matter, despite the reality and the vastness of the contradicting evidence. A million people could find Beethoven boring and non-communicative, and he still wouldn't change his mind about the psychology of music and Beethoven's throne at the top of it. No big deal to me, but he will continue to have these kinds of arguments with any number of open-minded individuals if he continues having the attitude that people who don't get into Beethoven (or any music you think has the universal qualities you talk about) are misled, inferior, or overly academic. For all the certainty of his position, he IS a minority. The sooner he realizes this, the better, and the happier he might find himself. Hopefully he'll lighten up, or explode (lol), but I'd hope that this won't be a stumbling block he carries forever. Hopefully something will give. Jeff is simply unreasonable, and that's what pushes people's buttons. Well that, and calling other composers the antithesis of art. Personally, I think that's what it's all about. If you give someone such a title, you acknowledge their success in creating diversity. Variety is the spice of life.
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Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/25/2009 5:16 PM (GMT -5) | | 01101 said...
A million people could find Beethoven boring and non-communicative.
Find Beethoven the person boring? Because the man wrote so much different music... I find it hard to believe you're referring to ALL of his music in this way. Perhaps you think exactly the way I think you do, and organize your iTunes playlist by "Artist". Yes? Maybe you should organize it by 'how it makes me feel'?
The reason they find him boring is because there is new music that satisfies the ideals society now has. I have no doubt that if they tried, they could learn to appreciate some of Beethoven's music, if not all of it. Because the music ITSELF does that. But why should they care about music that doesn't care about them, much less a composer that doesn't care about their musical needs? Well, another joke on you - because if you write music that's musical to you, you WILL have music that's musical to other people.
People just aren't in this constant state of BEING. They're malleable... soft-brained and able to be worked with. Why do some children learn to appreciate Beethoven and others don't? There have been studies, numerous ones, done about the surprising ability of the brain to rewire itself even after childhood.
Wrong again.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/25/2009 4:23:25 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/25/2009 5:28 PM (GMT -5) | | You don't seem to get what I'm saying, and I think it might be because it's all going over your head. Why would organizing your playlist by 'artist' matter (btw, you didn't correct me - am I right?)?
Because maybe you aren't aware, but your brain is saying to you 'this guy is good, listen to more'... and 'this guy/gal/cross-gendered person isn't, don't waste your time'.
How many times has a really bad piece of music slipped by and been accepted just because of somebody's name? And how many people never discover Bach or Handel because of a particularly bland piece of theirs?
And, it's important to me, because you seem to categorize me and file me into your moronic little iTunes categories.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
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TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 5:44 PM (GMT -5) | | I'll answer this question with a list:
Sample music that I thoroughly enjoy...
Gyorgy Ligeti: Arc-En-Ciel, L'escalier du Diable, Vertige
Chen Yi: The Golden Flute, Night Thoughts, Happy Rain on a Spring Night, Shuo
Susan Ahi: Piano Trio II. Scherzo
Sample music that I additionally skip over...
Gyorgy Ligeti: String Quartets, Lontano, Cello Concerto
Chen Yi: Qi, Monologue
Susan Ahi: Piano Trio I. and III.
I'm incredibly picky about what I really choose to listen to on a daily basis, you're incredibly far from the truth on this one. And if you really think that I am some kind of zombie that is a slave to brain impulses, well that's just funny. If I really like a particular piece by someone, sure, I'll go ahead and give more of their music a shot, doesn't mean I'll like it. I mean, really? Are we really having this discussion? I can't take some of these comments seriously, sorry to disappoint you.
Yes, you're right, I have my LIBRARY organized by artist. However, I primarily play tunes based on PLAYLISTS that I create, which have any number of diverse artists and styles on them. Again, it's not even necessary for me to respond to this, it's really quite ridiculous, and you know that. Why don't you stop going for low blows so we can have a serious discussion around here?
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Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/25/2009 6:07 PM (GMT -5) | | 01101 said...
And if you really think that I am some kind of zombie that is a slave to brain impulses, well that's just funny.
What are 'brain impulses'? Is that like an alpha-wave, but in your made-up terminology?
Listen, I'm guessing here and I just happened to be right about you organizing by 'artist'. Nothing to be ashamed of. But you ARE a zombie, more than you think. If you feel that you have a significantly higher control over your brain activity than everybody else, I'd like to see it first-hand. And that means doing an MRI while you're in the process of selecting which piece of music to listen to next. I'm not going to take you on your word because you characterize yourself as 'incredibly picky' (pickier than whom? On a scale of 1-10?).
I could keep going, but it would only frustrate you. I don't find it funny that somebody who doesn't give half the thought I do to how music affects people is telling me generalizations about 'how everybody is different' and singing some bizarre and misguided anthem about individuality. Sorry, I need more than that to feel different. Likewise, like some people believe in God because of blind faith, I believe in God because I've worked out how such a thing could be possible from the point of view of humanity and the ultimate outcome of evolutionary progress. God makes sense to me. There would be only one because reproduction would be so evolved that it simply takes place inside of the same organism... also, the only reason there are so many of us is because of selection, which would be a thing of the past, and because more of us tends to mean conflict... and ultimately, God would want to start the process over, maybe because He would recognize from earlier biblical texts that he IS (and always has been) God. Blows the mind, doesn't it? It would blow the mind of a simple little microbe inside of us to know that we're sustaining it and that we now know it's there and what its role is inside of us. I've used this analogy lots of times, to get people to think outside of their boxed-in point of view. God DOES exist, because everything else does too, and it's just inevitable anyway in the span of infinity.
And you think I'M limiting myself? Pfff, hah is what I say to you... maybe I could stand to be a little more down to earth.
I like to think about these things because I can't waste my time not thinking about them, and thinking instead about what f***ing football team is going to win. That may be reality to some people, and it's still fun for me occasionally, but I have to go beyond that. And I will go beyond you in my music... just because of the way I think.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/25/2009 5:11:19 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 6:21 PM (GMT -5) | | | |
TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/25/2009 6:57 PM (GMT -5) | | | | | 73 posts in this thread.
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