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TwelveTone
Registered Member
      
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/26/2009 2:18 AM (GMT -5) |   | | |
jk
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 644
| Posted 10/26/2009 3:11 AM (GMT -5) | | |
Cattie said...
Well, I was still being a bit of a jerk, so I've changed my signature back... Beethoven's words are worthier than mine, anyhow...
Beethoven once said: "I don't know why, but my music sounds terrible, I'm afraid!"
So do I (most of it, that is). And his words are worthier than mine, that one I agree with you.
So, Jeff, don't we have a dilemma here?
(back from a couple of days out of town, and the fat is in the fire)
Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord
Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!Post Edited (jk) : 10/26/2009 2:22:01 AM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
Devin Chaloux
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 1009
| Posted 10/26/2009 9:49 AM (GMT -5) | | Lol, another argument about academia? Really. This is getting so old. Individuality is an important aspect of composition (or learning.) I mean, you have to think for yourself. I would hope most professors realize that each person is entitled to their opinion and only help sway their opinions if they are misinformed or incorrect in factual information. To assume that professors are swaying personal opinions for the sake of destroying individualism is, well...insane. Babbitt - who I think was off his rocker as a composer - mentored both my composition teacher and Stephen Sondheim...two VERY tonal composers. In fact, when you look at the list of the most successful composers over the past few years, many of them follow under the tonal scheme of things, even though many of their personal teachers were heavily into other styles.
Everyone should make an informed opinion. But to say something like "the Tristan chord can only be a half diminshed 7th" and not accept other interpretations is borderline insane.
As far as the Beethoven argument...sure, you could argue he was different, but then why do people still believe that some of his earliest piano sonatas were among his best? And how does that argument relate to Bach, the one who was berated for composing in a dead style (and end up as possibly one of the most sophisticated composers ever.) How does that relate versus the Strauss v. Wagner late-Romanticism period? How does that relate to Stravinsky's two-sided career as a composer?
As I see it, Beethoven really just expanded on the likes of Mozart and Haydn. He didn't really introduce many of his new concepts until after he started losing his hearing. Sure, he was different, but in comparison to Schubert and Wagner...not so much. Most of Schoenberg's early music was just that...different. Other than his very first pieces, he was writing in a style never attempted before. I guess you could say the same about the likes of Cage or Adams as well. But you can clearly hear the influences of Haydn in Beethoven's early works. As he got more comfortable with composition, he started to expand and push the boundaries (of the classical period) first with the Eroica, then of course, his late sonatas and Symphony #9 being the antithesis.
And if all people being different were studied, why don't we study more of Pergolesi's music? I mean, he was one of those influential figures that jumpstarted classical music. Even CPE Bach...he's mostly forgotten today for his innovations (especially in keyboard music.)
So, with that, I think both of you have extreme flaws in your argument...and once again, I leave into the deep abyss of my college work as I continue preparing for graduate school.
Tschuss. | | Back to Top | |
Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/26/2009 7:08 PM (GMT -5) | | How is it not my place? Who on Earth should I let tell me what is and isn't in my place? Do you have an answer for that? Is it your place? If it's nobody's place, then I claim ownership of this said 'place' for myself.
There are several simple things you, Steve, can do to prove me absolutely without a doubt wrong. Not just skirt around me like you have been, saying 'this is ridiculous' and 'that is ridiculous'. So was the Heliocentric Theory when it was proposed. You should be grateful I'm giving you this opportunity...
1. Tell me what you get from music that none of us here does.
2. Tell me what you've been putting in your music that none of us here has.
3. Tell me how you originally got into music, and remember - "be original!"
4. Give me one piece of music that ONLY ONE person would/does like. (not one of mine)
You may argue - 'Jeff, the diversity isn't in ONE thing, it's in the combination of things that come together to make somebody unique...'
To which my answer would be - get a combination lock that doesn't open when you get the sequence right.
Beyond that, I just want to share a funny experience I had today (actually, two... one doesn't really have anything to do with this discussion)... I recently found out that one well-known composer aspires to be different too. He writes in all lowercase letters to support his philosophy that beginnings and endings are sometimes blurred and can't be found. Whatever works for him... I just find it amusing that writing in lowercase letters is how he expresses his individuality, when every single teenager online does that same exact thing.
Also, I saw Ralph Shapey's horrible handwriting again today... and, quite appropriately, the indication that the score 'sounds as written'.
Take care,
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
 Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/26/2009 6:16:33 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
TwelveTone
Registered Member
Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 394
| Posted 10/26/2009 7:49 PM (GMT -5) | | First of all, you get me wrong. In all seriousness, I could care less about proving anybody right or wrong. That's a waste of time. It matters not to me.
Answers:
1. I never claimed to have a unique experience. What I've said from the start is that the experience will NEVER be the same for everyone. Several people may have the same one, but never will everyone have the same interpretive experience listening to a piece of music.
2. What have I put into my music that none of us here has? I don't know, did I ever claim to do such a thing? I don't understand the direction of this question. I couldn't answer it anyway without proper score study, which would be tedious, and which I can ASSURE you is not worthy of being warranted in this 'discussion'.
3. I find that hard to say, however I remember being about 3 or 4 years old and listening to jazz and classical music at my grandmother's when my mom dropped me off. After that, I always had musically inclined friends, who played anything from rap and death metal to ska and punk. One of my friends was a talented Christian rapper, another friend a cello prodigy since age 5. Does this help? I have had in my library music ranging from Cannibal Corpse, Carcass, Hed PE, Slayer, all the way to Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Mozart, etc. You're not going to pin me down with any sort of unifying theme between a band like Cryptopsy and Beethoven. But go ahead and try. I'd enjoy hearing it.
4. Again, I do not understand the nature of this comment. See answer to question #1.
Now this...
Jeff said...
You may argue - 'Jeff, the diversity isn't in ONE thing, it's in the combination of things that come together to make somebody unique...' To which my answer would be - get a combination lock that doesn't open when you get the sequence right.
That sounds good and everything, actually, I like that one. However, I don't think the musical experience HAS to meet requirements. I'm with Mike on this point. I don't think you can equate a musical experience to a combination lock. It might work that way sometimes. But often there is music that doesn't 'do it' for me, and eventually it might grow on me.
Additionally, SO WHAT if it doesn't open the lock for somebody. No big deal. You act like it's the end of the world. And AGAIN, Beethoven's early piano sonatas might open the lock for SOME people, but NEVER for EVERYONE, so what's your point?
Cattie said...
Beyond that...
YES. This is what I actually want to see more of from you. You are a person that wants to trash other people's music. It doesn't hurt my feelings anyway, so just go ahead and say what you really want to say. I'm tired of you being frustrated because you're not being the 'real Jeff'. Let it rip, slugger.
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jk
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 644
| Posted 10/27/2009 3:07 AM (GMT -5) | | | |
jk
Registered Member
Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 644
| Posted 10/28/2009 2:52 AM (GMT -5) | |
Devin Chaloux said...
01101 said...
Cattie said...
I think we're getting farther from the point here - being that music is 99.99% having the same basic purpose and goal... Jeff, this is the last thing I really even care to say about whatever subject we're on. THIS kind of statement is what I find ridiculous. You have no place to tell me, or anybody else for that matter, what purpose and goal their music has. I can't believe you claim to have authoritative knowledge on such things. It's really almost comedic that you would truly believe this way. Wow, what a slap to the face for all music theorists and musicologists!
... and not just for those!
Hi Devin, glad you're back.
Yes, I was on the verge of bringing you an ode for your excellent post, music to my ears, but I was flabber'ed by Jeff's reply.
BTW, I didn't understand much of this "bankless" (interminable) discussion - music is music is music.
Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord
Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time! | | Back to Top | |
Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/28/2009 1:33 PM (GMT -5) | | You're right, it is too easy.
They all go into our ears, get processed by the brain while being filtered through our psyche and memory, evoke a physical reaction, and bring people together who are having the same experience. The 1% is exactly HOW people feel about the pieces, which is just a different manifestation of the same thing.
Ten more, c'mon... I'm ready...
btw, do you ACTUALLY believe that the specific reaction you're having accounts for any more than 1% of what your brain and body just naturally do when listening to music? I'll say it again; you put too much weight on your feelings and not enough on the big picture.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/28/2009 12:49:19 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | |
Cattie
Temple University
Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1740
| Posted 10/28/2009 2:05 PM (GMT -5) | | What do you think the word PURPOSE means?! A reason for being! Music IS written FOR a reaction - otherwise there would be no reason to write it. It would be a car commercial without any viewers, 'Eye of the Tiger' without anyone's spirit and soul, 'America the Beautiful' without any Americans. The purpose of Music isn't to write this for that and that for this... it's to write for human beings, for him and her, you, me, and everyone. People are the most important thing to music.
Holy crap, the vision you have of music is frightening - COMPLETELY misses the mark. BIG PICTURE, STEVE! Music is music. Forget about all those stupid genres you've created, okay? They're getting in your way.
Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University
Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
Composer website
Music page
Buy scores
Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/28/2009 1:10:31 PM (GMT-5) | | Back to Top | | | 73 posts in this thread.
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