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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 10/28/2009 5:03 PM (GMT -6)

01101 said...
then why do you have such a huge stick up your ass about atonal music? ALL music is successful in this respect.

Really? Where, I can't see it.... lol You seem to think I have a problem with any music that utilizes atonality. Atonality can be understood, and maybe eventually it will be as strong a force and make the same connections as tonality does to us - but there's a certain bit of evolutionary hardware that isn't going to fully accept it just yet. We're not programmed to listen to music that goes completely outside of the realm of pitch relationships - outside of what virtually every tradition from around the world has in common - tension, release, strong and weak beats, some consistent meter... there's a reason why they exist, other than as rules to go and break in the pursuit of something for its own sake.

Oh, and I would say I was spot on with those definitions, wouldn't you? I'm not sure what you mean by bolding the word 'purpose'... that doesn't make the two synonymous or interchangeable, as you suggested they were. By your rule, using a toaster to kill yourself would be the purpose for which that toaster was built. lol

Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University

Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
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Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/28/2009 5:07:30 PM (GMT-5)

01101
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Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 10/28/2009 6:22 PM (GMT -6)

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Post Edited (01101) : 10/28/2009 6:32:14 PM (GMT-5)

01101
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Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 10/28/2009 6:31 PM (GMT -6)

purpose - the reason for which something is done

What music is one-dimensional? All music is written to be heard. So what. It doesn't end there. There's more to it. You act like purpose has to be pinpointed to a single objective. That's ridiculous.

I'm done with you. You haven't proved a damn thing. There's just no point to arguing with you. It's fun, but you're redundant and it just gets old. Your level of embarrassing behavior is enough for me.

Remember a while back when you had that moment of clarity when you realized you were a childish person with a bad attitude? I'm glad you fixed that. Just keep being you. ;>)

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 10/28/2009 7:16 PM (GMT -6)

I wouldn't trade my philosophy and depth of perspective for all of the maturity and positive attitude in the world. What you realize when you're probably high I think about and UNDERSTAND when I haven't even had my coffee yet.

I've proven you wrong on several different occasions, isn't that enough? Denial doesn't count as a counter-argument.

But out of all of this, even without every other little thing I've said, you should be starting to realize that we're acting in exactly the same way.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 10/28/2009 7:39 PM (GMT -6)

I'm sorry, Jeff. You really haven't refuted anything I have said. You didn't refute my last statement once again. The only thing you have done is to generalize everything, and/or twist it to whatever point you think you're making.

Once again, basically what you really wanted to say was that all music you dislike sucks, it's inferior, it doesn't communicate. Just get to it. Let your true colors shine, buddy. That's what's frustrating you. I mean, really, I don't care about these petty arguments over definitions anymore than you do (or maybe you really do care). So why are you still doing this? It's not about a correct definition. That's not where these things start. They start when you think you know other people better than themselves. Let's go back to where this one started, once again with your typical kind of generalizing statement. Yet another time where you tried to speak for us all (who are thankfully different than you). You think that how you say it is the way it is. That's called being arrogant, and often it's offensive.

Cattie said...
Art is always study - pure expression can only come when you know how to effectively translate the things you think and feel into an energy that will produce the same response in others.

Right, so times when I'm at home, playing jazz by myself, or playing anything, BY MYSELF, and I am moved to tears (yes, this has happened), it's not pure expression, right? Because nobody is there to hear it, right? I never got a chance to test that day on others, so since you speak for everyone, what do you think?

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 10/28/2009 9:24 PM (GMT -6)

I think you're still arguing with me when you said you were done.

Besides that, I think I would like to hear what you were playing. Do you know what about it made you cry? I'm absolutely sure that what you played would have made a lot of other people cry too - what you were expressing was probably something very human... hey, it's not only important to know what other people go through to write music... it's also an important part of EMPATHIZING. I never said that the source and the receptor for the communication can't be the same... but your reaction to 'your own' playing is more complicated than just YOU. Furthermore, like I've said before - it's not music if it's not happening for you. If you were to play the same exact thing again and not cry, not feel much of anything for whatever reason (maybe that's not what you needed to hear that day), then I don't believe you can call it music just because it's the same set of notes.

To me, music never IS indefinitely... it happens, then it goes away.

Post Edited (Cattie) : 10/28/2009 9:43:53 PM (GMT-5)

MM
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Date Joined May 2008
Total Posts : 453

Posted 10/29/2009 10:19 AM (GMT -6)

Jeff, I always meant to tell ya this. And believe me it's in a comical way.
I'm not sure if you ever watched Family Guy....One of my favorite shows actually.

Well, I hear Stewie Griffin when I read your posts.....lol... I have a strange imagination......lol....

Just a little jocularity to break the tension.....

Carry on....

Devin Chaloux
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Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 930

Posted 10/29/2009 6:28 PM (GMT -6)

Steve, you amuse me. Everything has a purpose.

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/30/2009 3:17 AM (GMT -6)

I thought THE essential of ALL art is its purposelessness.

Tell me, Devin, what is the purpose of e.g. Christo's Curtain in Central Park?

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Devin Chaloux
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Total Posts : 930

Posted 10/30/2009 8:48 AM (GMT -6)

It's all philosophical jk. Nothing can be done without a purpose. Those trying to do something without a purpose are, in fact, doing something with a purpose. It's a paradox. There is no such thing as a "lack of purpose" or purposelessness (as you call it.) And like Jeff said earlier, purpose and intention are two ENTIRELY different words with different syntaxes.

Intention...well...no one for certain can know the exact intention (unless it has been notated by the intender himself.) With that said, people's jobs are to locate the intention using theories (note the word theory and not fact) and history. Therefore a music theorist and musicologist are trying to locate the intention of certain pieces or composers much like how a physicist tries to figure out how the world works and a historian tries to figure out the intentions of events in the past (e.g. Revolutionary War, the Mayan Extinction, Reaganomics, etc...)

But alas, it seems I'm arguing with people that don't really like to philosophize too much and are too concentrated on the tangibility of everything. In that case, God created man and A is 440. The end.

jk
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Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/30/2009 8:58 AM (GMT -6)

As soon as an object or a phenomenon (of art) gets a purpose it's turning into a utility, and ceases to be art.

(BTW my harpsichord has its A on 392).

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Devin Chaloux
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Total Posts : 930

Posted 10/30/2009 9:01 AM (GMT -6)

So there is no such thing as art and you're defying physics? Man...that's just an incredible one-man feat!

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/30/2009 10:44 AM (GMT -6)

I know at least three famous art-philosophers who think similarly. Two French: André Malraux and Denis Huisman, and one Anglo-Saxon: Herbert Read. So, at least a four-man-guerilla.

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Devin Chaloux
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Total Posts : 930

Posted 10/30/2009 11:29 AM (GMT -6)

Right...so then the Louvre is a collection of artlessness.

jk
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Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/30/2009 11:59 AM (GMT -6)

The Louvre is a collection of art pieces mainly Italian from origin and robbed by Napoleon Bonaparte, while occupying and pillaging the Piemonte. (And should be brought back, still).

But it's not of my knowledge that the Louvre pieces (or any Louvre piece) were utensils.

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Devin Chaloux
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Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 930

Posted 10/30/2009 12:08 PM (GMT -6)

Well technically isn't it being utilized as an exhibition for other people's pleasure? Isn't that purpose? See the paradox to this argument?!

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 10/30/2009 12:36 PM (GMT -6)

jk, there is a difference between not knowing a thing's purpose and denying purpose. It's very much a thing of faith, to say that everything has a purpose, obviously... but I have to agree that everything does - you are forced to look at the way things evolve and balance themselves and the unstoppable nature of Art... through war and oppression, suffering and depression - and believe in a purpose. And to me, Art is to fill in the areas of our consciousness that are left over even after all of the other things that crowd it. We are occupied with it - THAT is a purpose.

jk
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Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/30/2009 2:00 PM (GMT -6)

That's Arnold Hauser's School.

Malraux' School is the opposite.

Read what he says about the Dutch 17th century painters, the first painters who painted food, preferably food in abundance. Had nothing to do with food, but with their own pleasure in painting (look at André's The Peacock by Hondecoeter, somewhere at this forum). They could afford that, because most were wealthy before they started painting. It's pure passion. No other purpose than just painting.

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

01101
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Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 10/30/2009 3:11 PM (GMT -6)

Art... who cares?

Purpose... who cares?

I write music because it's enjoyable. I play music because I love to play it. I don't do anything 'art-related' simply because it's art or simply because of its inherent 'purpose'. I don't sit down and listen to Chen Yi thinking, "Man, this is such ART!", lol. More like, "That sounds so cool."

Juvenile? So what.

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jk
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Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 10/31/2009 2:11 AM (GMT -6)

01101 said...
Art... who cares?

Purpose... who cares?

The philospher does: he has to write a book on it.

The musician (painter) couldn't care less. He's doing his thing (hopefully).

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 10/31/2009 1:17 PM (GMT -6)

And The Man who is both informs his music with philosophy, otherwise it is Dead.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 10/31/2009 2:25 PM (GMT -6)

You wish, kid.

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jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 574

Posted 11/1/2009 3:55 AM (GMT -6)

Cattie said...
And The Man who is both informs his music with philosophy [...]

In that case ... HIDE!!

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

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