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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/1/2009 10:55 PM (GMT -6)

i. "Prelude"

Prelude to a second baroque suite. Originally the second movement to the first suite.

Started and finished today! Enjoy!

www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=681134&songID=8296587

Additionally, this movement in particular has another dedicatee, her name is Ali... so I'm renaming the movement to 'Ali-mande'.

Jeff Cattie (ASCAP)
Theodore Presser Co. (www.presser.com)
Bachelor of Music, Mus. Ed. - Temple University

Current projects: Piano Sonata No. 4 mvts III and IV; 'Bird Song' Quartet mvts I, II, and VI; 'The Neshaminy' Suite
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Post Edited (Cattie) : 11/8/2009 10:17:03 PM (GMT-6)

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 575

Posted 11/2/2009 5:06 AM (GMT -6)

The Ouverture deserves a better Allemande.
I'd rather say, this is a fantasy with not too much fantasy.
Besides, I'm counting quite some worrisome fifth parallels.

The easiest repair is for the pace - I guess 116 in time signature 2/4;
it needs a 4/4 beat, usually played them at 96 to 108 at most, depending on the character.

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately, though decisively change your mind from time to time!}

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 10:29 AM (GMT -6)

Counting fifths? Where exactly? I don't tend to concern myself with them, because I usually write around them without even thinking about it.

Allemandes have been written anywhere from Largo to Presto. I just listened to a Handel allemande that was faster than this.

Post Edited (Cattie) : 11/2/2009 9:35:15 AM (GMT-6)

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 575

Posted 11/2/2009 12:09 PM (GMT -6)

I found some at:
0:54/0:55, 1:14/1:15, 1:32/1:33, 3:04/3:05(?), 3:25/3:26
or at least funny sequences.

They're always being played too fast.
Harpsichordist Davitt Moroney is my favorite. From him I learned them play at ±96. And I think

Bach's French Suite in Eb Major is being played even slower - 84 maybe. To me a disciovery.

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately change your mind decisively from time to time!}

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 1:20 PM (GMT -6)

Well, that doesn't even make sense - since it's in binary form, you should have found an even number of parallel fifths. You picked out FIVE. That's impossible.

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 575

Posted 11/2/2009 1:35 PM (GMT -6)

Is that an indication that they are not there? Fine with me.

(there's one with a ?-mark - remove it from the list;
BTW, I don't understand that "binary"-story, I just hear them at those points, sorry ...)

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately change your mind decisively from time to time!}

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 1:37 PM (GMT -6)

I'll admit, there are plenty of 'funny' sequences... but there are no parallel fifths.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 1:39 PM (GMT -6)

Lol. A baroque suite that doesn't worry about hitting parallel 5ths? Interesting. You might at least check, that is, if you ever want to submit a baroque piece to anywhere it might be looked over by people who know what they're doing and be taken seriously.

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01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 3:33 PM (GMT -6)

I'm just sayin', you know, aren't parallel 5ths sort of looked at as 'noob' mistakes in the Baroque community?

Just sayin'.

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 3:40 PM (GMT -6)

Steve said...
A baroque suite that doesn't worry about hitting parallel 5ths?

You misread... I said I usually don't worry about them because I've learned how to completely avoid them. Part of the reason I'm pissed right now is BECAUSE jk is calling me out on such an academic mistake.

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 575

Posted 11/2/2009 3:42 PM (GMT -6)

I just wanted to put a simple "Ok."

I usually know what I'm doing. They smell like fifths, they sound like fifths, so, they probably are fifths. And I hear them, and I've indicated where I hear them. The one with the question mark wasn't probably a fifth but something else I'd never write in a baroque suite.
I'm allergic for two things: fifth parallels and tritonus.

Cattie said: "They are not there, because it's binary. It's therefore impossible!"

Again: the Ouverture deserves a better Allemande.

(Maybe Ali isn't that charming a girl one would write an Allemande for, and after all it's only for Ariel ... huh, huh, huh, hah).

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately change your mind decisively from time to time!}

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 3:46 PM (GMT -6)

Stop putting words in my mouth... I did NOT say they are not there because it's in binary form... I said there's no way you could have heard FIVE if you had picked them all up, because in binary form everything is present in an even number. Therefore, there can't be FIVE instances where there are parallel fifths. You just explained that four of them may have been fifths, so fine. I'll tell you exactly if you're right or wrong, as soon as I can look at the score again.

Do you understand what I'm saying now? I also know what I am doing. I'm not a Baroque composer - this suite is as Baroque as I get.

And I would stop talking about people about whom you know nothing. It makes you look like a fool.

Post Edited (Cattie) : 11/2/2009 2:50:19 PM (GMT-6)

jk
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2009
Total Posts : 575

Posted 11/2/2009 4:02 PM (GMT -6)

Dynamic sounds like ffff
Somewhat louder and you even don't need the internet ...

^{Instruments: flute, piano, harpsichord}

^{Deliberately change your mind decisively from time to time!}

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 5:33 PM (GMT -6)

Lol.

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 5:47 PM (GMT -6)

What? Look, I'm finding your criticisms lacking...

First of all, :54/:55 is at the beginning again - so are you saying there is a parallelism in the first few bars too? Why didn't you hear it there as well? I'm not finding it, whatever it is... I honestly don't know what you're talking about there...

1:14/1:15 - I know EXACTLY what you're hearing, and it isn't a parallel fifth - it's a progression from V to VI major, which is handled CORRECTLY.

1:32/1:33 - Same thing. This time, there are only two distinct voices... do you think I'm a moron?

3:25/3:26 - If that's wrong, I'm gonna go dig up Handel and Bach and tell them 'Jan said he hears bad things in your music'. That part is also two voices, made thicker by the doubling of the continuo in every instrument except the right hand of the harpsichord and the flute.

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 5:52 PM (GMT -6)

Yeah Steve, go ahead and eat your words now. No parallel fifths.

By the way, who was able to hear your fantastically impossible chord in a matter of minutes? Was it Jan? Or me?

I believe it was Jan who advised you to give up on such an impossible task and invest in a score rather than your ear. I guess now I know why.

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 6:01 PM (GMT -6)

Haha, oh and 'ffff'? Are you going to tell me now that you can tell the dynamic marking of a piece that has very little dynamic contrast simply on how loud it seems to you through your sound system? Maybe you should just turn down your speakers? I guess then that might change the written dynamic of the music to 'ppp'?

lesotho72
Registered Member

Date Joined Dec 2006
Total Posts : 137

Posted 11/2/2009 6:03 PM (GMT -6)

Hi Jeff,

Another enjoyable movement. Nice orchestration and varied texture -- similar to the first movement -- it certainly sounds like legitimate baroque music.
I did feel the main 4 note phrase was a bit overdone in parts. i.e grew a bit tired of hearing same little motif. May be interesting (if not true to baroque form) to add a note to it in certain parts -- so, spin it out to a 5 note phrase, maybe 6 note phrase,etc. Not sure how that would go over though -- may not fit stylistically. Bu tmay bring about some interesting rhythmic shifts and hemiolas.
Nice work nonetheless.

Dan

http://www.societyofcomposers.org/user/danielcarr.html

Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 6:24 PM (GMT -6)

You know what? I agree, Dan... lol

I don't know why, and you might not be as knowledgeable as Jan on the Baroque, but your comments are a relief to me. Maybe it's because I'm not trying to be as authentic as I am just plain musical (and yes, the oft-repeated 4-note motifs and the absence of more melodic ideas are what I consider to hinder the music as well).

I think I'll leave this alone and start a new second movement, maybe with those considerations in mind; as far as the hemiolas and shifts, those are not a characteristic part of the allemande. You find those more often in hornpipes and other country dances, although I'm no expert.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 6:32 PM (GMT -6)

Eat my words? Lol. You should re-read them. Easy, boy! ;>)

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 6:37 PM (GMT -6)

Parallel 5ths in this context naturally sound wrong to me; I don't need to go back and check as if I'm handing in a 'History of Baroque Music' final exam.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 7:03 PM (GMT -6)

Cattie said...
By the way, who was able to hear your fantastically impossible chord in a matter of minutes? Was it Jan? Or me?

Are you serious? Lol. I never even tried to transcribe it before I asked. Lol. You're talking to someone who's done about 200 jazz and classical transcriptions. It was really a bit of laziness, but I just asked for fun as a project for the forum. I actually thought more people might participate. If you want to think otherwise, well, that's only natural for you. Go right ahead, big guy.

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Cattie
Temple University

Date Joined Mar 2007
Total Posts : 1630

Posted 11/2/2009 7:23 PM (GMT -6)

If you didn't try, what was that chord you posted? Did it have anything to do with the chord in the sample?

You thought more people would participate? They would have, I'm sure, if I hadn't just come out and gave the answer. I GUESS I had fun doing it... it was just one chord, though... not much compared to your 200 transcriptions. With all that practice, it must have been frustrating to have a "noob" like me get it so easily.

01101
Registered Member

Date Joined Jul 2009
Total Posts : 318

Posted 11/2/2009 7:37 PM (GMT -6)

Frustrating? Lol, you wish. Not everybody thinks on whatever competitive platform you tend to view yourself a part of. Like I said, the chord was presented in fun (PB&J, remember?). And I already explained my own chord to you, I wanted to do my own thing in addition to what the original chord was. The one I posted was not at all an attempt at the original chord. I did try to get some of the same mojo from the original chord, but that's as far as it went.

And I never called you a noob. ;>)

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Devin Chaloux
Registered Member

Date Joined Feb 2008
Total Posts : 930

Posted 11/2/2009 8:56 PM (GMT -6)

Cattie,

I'm not sure exactly what it is, but this really doesn't sound baroque. I think it might have to do with the fact that the harpsichord actually has melody rather than its normal role of realizing figured bass. It's just oddly not baroque...at least in my opinion.

Not that there is anything wrong with the piece itself, because its very nice. I really like some of the contrapuntal things you did. Dan is right that you probably killed the four-note motive a bit...

Anyway, still liked it as a 21st Century stylistic composition.

Devin

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